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katrina collier

How to be a good recruiter and not make people depressed? – Interview with Katrina Collier | Call for Tech

Hi, Katrina. It’s so good to see you. Thank you so much for accepting the invitation to join this interview. Could you please introduce yourself?

So I’m Katrina Collier. I am best known as the author of the Robot-Proof Recruiter. But actually, I have been in the industry for nearly two decades, which is quite shocking how fast that’s gone. I’ve been in agency, I’ve been in house, I’ve been a trainer. I’ve had the incredible honor to speak on stages all around the world. And of late, since the publication of the Robot Proof Recruiter, I’ve been running programs like coaching and mentoring programs with recruiters. So, of course I have The Collective and I also run these incredible design thinking workshops, which are all about treating people better through the recruitment process. So that’s me in a nutshell. Great. And if anyone is watching the video, that’s the second edition of The Robot Proof Recruiter. Bright orange. Can’t miss it.

Exactly. That’s Exciting.

I’m so excited to have a second edition. I needed it.

I can imagine. And also, the next question is about the second edition of the book, because at the beginning of August, you released the second edition of The Robot-Proof Recruiter. I have both with me.

Oh, look at you. Thank you. That’s amazing. Yeah, absolutely. It was funny when I was writing the first book, or the first edition, I should say my first book, the first edition, I wanted it to be written on. I didn’t want it to be this high level strategy book. I wanted people to get out their pens and scribble on it. And it’s funny when people are saying, you’re going to do an audio one, which I am, I just haven’t done it yet. But you need something to scribble on as well to buy both. Listen to me. But right. Because there’s a definite learning that comes from doing that. That’s what I wanted. And just there’s too many books at a high level. But yeah, there was a question you just asked me. I forgot what it was about.

I didn’t ask it, actually, I was to let you know that I am a huge fan.

Well, thank you.

Because I did donate my royalties to “Hope for Justice” charity. So every single purchase is changing people’s lives, not only your own, because it’s such a cool book and it’s got so much community in it. But those royalties, they’re not lining my pocket. So buy ten copies, please. Ten.

That’s a great cause. And thank you for mentioning that, because we, of course, invite all the viewers to purchase the book and not only learn so many insightful things about recruitment, but also support the charity. So that is a great initiative. But coming back to my questions. I just wanted to ask you who can benefit the most from reading the book and what makes the second edition different from the first edition?

Okay, so of course I wrote it for recruiters and talent acquisition. I did write it slightly more for in-house recruiters. However, I think that external recruiters can get a greater understanding of what’s genuinely happening now within companies, these talent acquisition functions that are developing and becoming quite extraordinary in many companies. So I would say there’s that bias. But people like Glenn Elliott. He was CEO of Reward Gateway. He’s read it and then he’s bought it for his team. Because it’s just like, actually, we really do, as leaders of a company, need to understand recruitment better. So if you have any directors or hiring leaders who are being difficult, give them a copy, ask them to read it because it will be eye-opening to them. But the overall theme of the transparency and the noise created by the internet and how their behavior is on the Internet for people to see and stops the company from hiring, it’s beneficial for them. And then if you have also that talent acquisition versus HR thing going on, I would like you to get HR to read it as well. So pretty well, anyone involved in hiring, the difference between the two. The second edition has to be around 25% different, which I believe it is. I didn’t actually sit down and check… but it needed a pandemic upgrade. I mean, I got to the part about flexible working and just rolled my eyes. It was so irrelevant all of a sudden when I wrote it in 2018, 2019, things like that mattered and there were some changes. Things like pronouns that become incredibly important, and other things that perhaps within the speakership of your profiles. But it was also there’s Audacity. That people with skills that are in demand now have less fear about the repercussions of writing something on the internet. So if they write, your company treated me really badly as an employee. Example in there of someone who went to this particular company that we pretty well all know because of their diversity, and then that person was excluded and not given promotions, etc, because of the diversity. So it’s like, wow. And he’s written out on the internet for the world to see and there’s things like that. Lots of changes. So there’s more contributions, even more contributions, updates. Make sure the technology was still working because some of it is gone. Sadly, some of my faves disappeared as well. 2020 was a hard year, so we did lose a lot of staff. So it’s all fresh. Just buy them all.


I should say “Hope for Justice” aimed at modern day slavery, which is impacting 40 million people globally. So it is a current issue. So there’s such an incredible charity. Definitely. Buy ten.


All of your team don’t share it. Right on it.

Exactly. There’s this quote in the first edition of the book: “Whenever I hear recruiters complaining about candidate ghosting, I’m surprised that they do not realize that recruiters have been ghosting candidates for years”. I’m pretty sure that it doesn’t come from bad intentions in most cases. But in your opinion – why are recruiters ghosting candidates and how to prevent that?

It’s funny in 2020, when so many recruiters ended up out of work and then had to go through the experience of trying to get a job and being ghosted, yet they’ve still gone back into work and are still ghosting and still forgetting all of their empathy and compassion you think that they would have from the experience that they had at that time would be better recruiters. And sadly, it’s not the case. Sometimes it’s laziness, sometimes it’s fear, sometimes it’s not having the technology in place to do it. Though that is actually a really sad excuse because you could just change your email signature to a rejection email and just reply and use that signature, preferably with the correct names, et cetera, on it. It’s really hard, I think, really sadly, considering how much of our job is rejecting people, we have one role and we have 50 people apply and we know we’re going to reject 49 of them. Right. There still seems to be quite a lot of fear about telling people that’s a no. And I find that really strange. And it’s one of the things I look to address with the book and The Collective and obviously even the workshops. It’s just do not have blanket no feedback policies. Make sure people understand how to give feedback that changes people’s lives. If anybody has interviewed with you and you’re not giving them feedback, it’s just so unfair because you could change someone’s life. 

Exactly. I totally agree. And also coming to what you just said – giving negative feedback is an inherent part of the hiring process, but it surely isn’t easy, both for the candidates but also for recruiters. So how to give negative feedback so that both sides feel okay with it and benefit from it.

I got this from my friend Sue Ingram, who is just extraordinary, and she said it’s all about demonstrate. So the hiring manager was looking for somebody who demonstrated project management or this particular project management skill or whatever it was. And unfortunately, in the interview, you didn’t demonstrate it as well as she possibly could have. So make sure when you go forward to your next interview, you demonstrate that skill, whatever that was, right? And it’s extraordinary by using that skill. And they might go well, unfortunately, another applicant did demonstrate it better. So make sure when you’re going forward and then they go into that next interview they do and they get the job. And it really is that in the interview, we can get really nervous, can’t we? Because even interviewers can be nervous if they’re New Time interviewers. But it’s such an awkward situation. You know, I’m used to it, I love chatting, right? But I’m not trying to prove my ability to do my job and it’s quite hard in the moment to remember everything and do the best job because we’re nervous. So I love that. Just the way she said, “oh, they were just looking for you to demonstrates empathy and compassion and unfortunately, with the example you use, you didn’t demonstrate it.”So be sure as you go forward into future interviews, you really give a great example, you really demonstrate those skills and they can’t really argue with that either. And the other thing to do, some people will know that they screwed up the interview. So if you email them and say, look, I’ve got feedback. Would you like it? Book a time in my diary and use calendar or whatever, then you’re giving them the option and some people will go, oh no, it’s cool, fine. I know they won’t book a time and that’s great. So there’s someone else you have to give the feedback to. The one thing I will say, there’s an example in addition to from a girl and it shocked me when I saw it. Hence I really wanted to include it in the book. She showed a spreadsheet of something like 28 applications that she’d made and to her, not hearing back on an application was being ghosted. And I think we have the perception that it’s after an interview and that was quite eye-opening. But be aware as well, end-ghosting which is They’ve done research and 86% of people who don’t hear back, who are ghosted by recruiters feel down or depressed. So we have a responsibility to not leave people feeling it down or depressed. Now, when candidates go to us, we feel irked, we feel a bit put out, we have to start recruitment process again. It’s a hassle, but we don’t feel down or depressed.

Wow, that distinction, that’s amazing statistics. And also if you think about how the candidates might feel, that’s of course the first aspect, but also you can think about how it influences the way that they see our company as well. Because I know from my own experience and experience of some other employees, if the company does not reach out to you when you apply, then it also puts the company in a bad light.

Absolutely. And there is technology that you can use for that. Let’s get into 2022, let’s use Rich Media. I cannot remember the name of the technology. It’s definitely in the book. It’s like gone out of my head. But if someone applies, they’re likely to put their mobile or their cell number right? Send them a Rich Media text, put a gift in it or a meme or whatever you wish and just add “Hey, thanks for your application”. Now, be aware, we get overloaded with applications. I’m going to do my utmost to get back to you, but in the interim, please go and have a look at these job search tips or go and join our talent pool, or go and see our Instagram account to see behind the scenes. Give people something so they feel it’s like an experience, like, “oh gosh, I’m already feeling a little bit welcome”. And if you also set the scene, as you know, we do get a lot of applications and it’s reminding them that you are one of X. So we’re going to do our best, but someone might do better. Job seekers are aware. They’re not silly, they understand they’re not the only applicant, but then it’s a case of making sure that you then close them again. So if you don’t proceed, I’m afraid it’s a note this time. Can we keep in touch with you? That sort of thing. The other thing, I’d like to see if it’s just you’re still sticking on email, and this is far more in-house recruiters than agencies tend to use their names, which is brilliant, by the way. Don’t write “Kind regards, the talent acquisition team on the email”. There is a person allocated to every job, put their name, put their email, put their contact number, because the people that actually follow up their application, which is like one in 100, they’re the people you really want to talk to. They’re excited, they really want to talk to you about this role. They’ve genuinely seen something about your company or the role that they want to be part of. And it’s this fear of not putting contact details when you can just go to and find someone’s business. Email is just silly.It gives this personal connection as well. Be human.

Yeah. And about being human, you describe tactics to personally connect with the candidate, for example, by checking their Facebook or Instagram profile to come up with an attention grabbing conversation starter. But do you think that some candidates might find it as an invasion of their privacy? Is there a line that recruiters should not cross?

Definitely don’t write “I saw on Facebook that you have three children”. Right? So when I get this question, I’m not asking you to use Facebook Messenger, I’m not asking you to add them as a friend. Now, if you cannot find that applicant anywhere else, absolutely send them a Facebook Messenger request. You’re not adding them as a friend. Right. I think of healthcare, for example, or in trades, then it’s so unlikely they’re going to be on LinkedIn. However, it’s all about how you use that information. So you’ve seen that they have a certain hobby, so perhaps they like yoga or they like rowing or whatever it is. Okay. If I look at Katrina’s profile, I can see everywhere that she has dogs. I do not write that on LinkedIn. But you’ll see it on everywhere else. On my socials, I don’t have children. So when you’re making that initial approach, please don’t talk to me about your nursery or your whatever. I’m not interested. “Did you know we have a bring dog to work policy?”. Totally. You’re going to get my attention. And that’s without going “I saw on Facebook that…” right? So it’s like, have a look at their public information. These people have posted this stuff publicly, but just use it carefully. So it’s like if you went to someone else and you could see that there are father with three kids, they will want to know about paternity leave and flexible hours and all this sort of stuff. And it’s just you may be interested to hear about our policy for parents, whatever it might be. Think about it, don’t be creepy with it. But it’s again, going back to the Hobbies as well. We’re quite active here at our company. We have lots of people involved in these sorts of activities, and you make sure you drop theirs in, assuming it’s true. Yeah, don’t lie. I’ll find it out straight away. Exactly. I’m sure others are listening, going, oh, I don’t have time to do this. And I understand that, but when you are recruiting people who have skills that are in short supply, you need to go above and beyond. So yeah. And that definitely helps you to stand out with your message. Absolutely. Yeah. People will say that. Yeah.

Okay. In Chapter five, “Get Your Intake”, you wrote about the importance of recruiters to build a relationship with the hiring manager, and you gave many great tips on how to do that. But why do you think it might be a challenge for some recruiters and hiring managers to be partners?

So many answers, so little time. Literally so many of the workshops that I run with talent acquisition teams or even hiring managers are all about this relationship and I call it collaboration chaos. Where people are working together, they’re not communicating properly, and this creates chaos that the poor candidate has to go through. Oh, there are so many reasons it could be hiring manager had a bad experience, right. So just doesn’t want to deal with the recruiter, but so often it is the recruiter as being an order taker. Now, if you want to take orders, go and work at Pizza Hut, right, and just take pizza orders. Your job as a recruiter is to literally sit up straight and have the attitude, I’m here to help you fill this role. Now, you might be a manager, you might be the VP of Toilet cleaning. I don’t care. I’m here to partner with you. You’re not senior to me. I’m the recruitment expert. You’re the expert in whatever you do, and together we’re going to fill that role. And I think if you start shifting that attitude and that posture, even on a video like sit up, they’ll start to realize that. So it’s going to be all of the ammunition that I talk about in Chapter Five, thanks to Steve Levy, Maisha Cannon, Tangie Pettis for that chapter. You go in with all of that ammunition and all of that knowledge and you ask questions, but you also create the together, we’re going to fill this and I’m going to get you CVs on this time. When are you going to get me feedback? How do you want to be communicated with all this sort of stuff? And you create an agreement. And I think sometimes it comes down to the hiring managers assess you that they don’t want to do that or lack of time too much pressure too many roles and you know, you just have to push back. Busy is like almost a badge that some people wear and they’re really not that busy and they just say they’re busy but it’s push back and just say, look, if you give me 1 hour upfront, I’m going to save you so many hours of reviewing CVS or resumes that aren’t right, interviewing people that aren’t right. Even hiring someone that’s not right. You’re going to stop wasting your time, so just give me the time I need upfront. If you can’t get that, it’s like, okay, well come back to me when you really need this role filled because you’ll soon discover which roles are urgent. Now be aware that the really shouty hiring manager possibly doesn’t have the actual really important role that you need to fill. Sometimes it’s a really quiet one, so just be aware of that. There’s some good examples, a new example in addition to as well from Clive at Sky Betting and Gaming, he talks about how they’ve got their hiring managers to prioritize the role because of that problem. So they prioritize all the roles, which is really fascinating case study in there because it’s not always the one that yells the loudest as well. But there’s also other questions that you can ask around. What’s the impact to the business while this role isn’t being filled? They can’t really give you an answer. It can’t be that great an impact where it’s like, I can’t deliver this project to this client and that’s costing us a thousand pounds a day or euros, dollars, wherever you are. It’s like, okay, this is slightly important. Okay, now give me this hour. And then in that hour I think one of the biggest and most important things to do is run searches with them. Literally show them. “Can you see there’s five people on the planet that can do what you’re asking for, right?” Let’s start taking out some of these must haves. Can we just get down to the three things you really need and stop dreaming? What else can be taught? Should we actually promote someone and backfill? Would that be easier? Question. I want you to be like toddlers, constantly asking questions as well. Not enough curiosity. Yeah, there’s so many answers. We’ll find out. It’s like so many different reasons. Yeah, but it’s sad because it’s like we throw tools and technology and data all the time and the recruitment function within a company and even whether they’re working with agency, it doesn’t matter, right? It’s still what happens internally that stops creates the problems. And it’s always the human beings, it’s always this issue between humans that causes the problem. And when we’re working remotely and we’re in Silos, it’s getting worse. That will be a challenge. Yeah, it’s fun. I love it. I love the workshops because I’m just leading them. They’re sharing their problems, they’re brainstorming the solutions. It’s all very democratic. And they always come up with these incredible solutions that are really easy to implement because, again, it’s just humans. 

Coming back to the first part of your answer to my last question, I think you mentioned that the recruiter has to be confident in the relationship with the hiring manager. And you also wrote in the book that as a recruiter or sourcer, you are in a fight for attention, not a war for talent. So does it mean that a recruiter should also be a good copywriter? And what are some other non-obvious skills, but also characteristics for recruiters?

So what I was more getting at yeah, it does help if you can write well and make it all about the recipient of the message. Far too often it’s like, I am looking for this and I want this. And yawn, advertising is always new. You never hear someone say, oh, I got into my new car and I love the smell. It’s like, oh, you’ll get into your new car and you’ll notice that new car smell, right? It’s the same thing. However, what I was also referring to is chapter two, where I talk about being a recruiter. Worth talking to. Have you filled out your profiles?

Now, I can assure you that recruiters and sourcers have not I couldn’t get over again, going back to 2020, how many were looking for work who spend their days looking at profiles and CVS haven’t filled their profiles out, they haven’t put a really interesting headline, but that people understand, right? Unicorn hunter. Most people aren’t going to get it. I recruit these kind of people and it’s like, add rich media, add your pronouns. If you have a name that’s difficult to pronounce on LinkedIn, use that thing and let people know how to pronounce your name. It’s a podcast interview. I bet you use that, because I certainly do. I click it and go, how do I say this name? Like my Australian English accent is like… so things like that the rich media behind the scenes. And then it’s making sure that just because you use LinkedIn doesn’t mean that the job seeker will. So go audit your other profiles, because if they Google you and you’ve got a name like mine, my Twitter comes up, my Instagram comes up. I haven’t quite got TikTok yet. All of those: what am I saying? Am I saying stuff on Twitter, for example, where they’re going to go “oh, I’m not talking to her, she’s a racist” or whatever. You don’t want that. So you need to be really careful what can be seen. That’s the sort of stuff I was also talking about. I find it interesting that people that are recruiting don’t think they’ll be looked at. You absolutely will. And then, of course, the next bit is the company. What are they saying about the company? What are the reviews like? Are they talking about you on recruiting? Hell on Reddit, for example, are they tweeting about you, what’s being said about your company, what’s in the news, what is deterring people from talking to you, those sorts of stuff. It’s quite a mix. Recruiting used to be a lot easier. It used to just be, I’d kind of call you up and talk to you about a role and you couldn’t really see what was out there. But the internet changed all of that. 

Yeah. so, in summary, you need to hear about your personal brand, but also your employer brand. Right? 

Yes. I just don’t call it personal brand because that sounds like hard work.

That is.

It is instantly connected to the marketing department or the PR department. You cannot do it yourself. How am I going to build my personal record? But actually, if you were just you – just create your profile so that you look approachable and I’m talking like things like run your photo through Photo Feeler. Do people want to talk to you or are they thinking, oh, God, they look a bit scary because sometimes people are angry in their photos. It’s quite hilarious. Do you look approachable in your photo? And then if you are sharing updates and I don’t mean like to me, personal brand does sound like hard work. We’re recruiters and sources, we’re not marketers. It’s kind of different to me. When you want it to be really authentic, it has to genuinely be, this is how I appear online and this is how I am in person. And you’ll find that with me, it’s exactly the same and always has been. I’m probably slightly more sweary in person, but it’s just that when you share an update, it doesn’t have to be in a hard work. It could be you’ve just seen a job seeker make this classic mistake and it just prompts you to write something of value add to your network, oh, gosh, I just had a CV and it has three different fonts on it. Now, I know it shouldn’t matter, but for some people that matters, so just make it easy for people to read. Use one font, spread it out, give us white space, genuine tips that are just a value to the people you’re trying to recruit. To me, personal brand is all right. I’ve got to make sure I post everywhere. That can be hard for people to post when you can, because you’re recruiting, you’re busy. Yeah. So don’t put too much pressure on yourself, just yourself. Be active and be approachable. Spend that first time getting it all on there. Right. And sharing all the information, that sort of a thing. And then it’s an update when you can do an update. Obviously, there’s some brilliant tools. I mean, Pager is a fantastic tool, which is Paige, which will help you. It will help prompt you to post so you can actually it will look for news on your subject and text it to you, which reminds you to share it. So that’s quite cool. That’ll help with some of that automation and getting the right information out and take some of the pressure off. So that’s quite cool. But it’s more just check your profiles to fill it up. Start there. Yeah, all set. I don’t expect you to be the next TikTok champion, but you’re totally meant. To be recruiting and not become a TikTok influencer.


That’s the right word, isn’t it? TikTok influencer. It’s the wrong generation for me. I’m just too old as a recruiter. If you want to become a TikTok influencer,good for you, but I think it’s also important to know where your target audience is, right? Where you want to recruit. So just becoming an influencer for the sake of being an influencer, maybe it’s not the best idea ever.


You’re recruiting bus drivers and you’re spending all your time on TikTok and they’re not even there, that sort of a thing. So, yeah, it’s important to know.

Absolutely. Okay. You are an advocate of keeping technology in its supporting role. However, with solutions available in the market nowadays, it may turn out to be hard to choose. The essential tools: ATS LinkedIn recruiter chatbot, interviewing software, onboarding software. I can name a few. The lists can go on and on, but how to pick the tools that we actually need and how to use them wisely so that they do not become too overwhelming for us?

So all the way through the book, I talk aboutonly get technology that saves you time, that saves the hiring manager time and creates a better experience with a candidate, right? They’re the prerequisites. So no matter how many shiny, shiny things it has on it, if it’s not saving you time, the hiring manager time, and creating better candidate experience, then you don’t get it. And the next thing to do is to go to your peers and ask them, what do you use? What do you hate about it? What do you like about it? What you love about it? Right? Go to your peers. They’re using the technology day in and day out. Does it save you time? Does it save the hiring manager time? Does it deliver a better candidate experience? Again, it’s always the same thing. And then the other thing is never by technology that hasn’t been created by a recruiter or with the input of recruiters. There are many people out there who think that they can do recruitment, but we are people recruiting people for other people, and everyone has a thought, feeling and emotion, and it’s complicated. It is a really hard job. Again, I think if you sometimes… it’ll be a developer had a bad day, so they’re like, oh, I’m going to create this, and it’s going to solve all recruitment problems. And they don’t understand the complication of us dealing with humans, trying to match humans together and get them into a job. So that’s, I think, another big one. So it saves time, creates a better experience. What do your peers recommend? Always go to your peers input of a recruiter or made by a recruiter. And actually the last thing is walk through your recruitment process. Are you just adding hurdles? So, an example of a person, actually, she’s just joined The collective, which is so cool and recruited a friend of mine. She was looking for another job, and she saw this job that was really interesting, actually got her to use her psychology and her recruitment experience, and she just wanted to know what the salary was, you know, recruitment 101. And they got her to answer a couple of questions, and then they sent her 18 more questions. Once you’ve completed these, then we’ll have a conversation, or possibly have a conversation. She’s like, I’m not going to spend hours answering these 18 questions. They’re ridiculous. Some of them were taking her back to university, which was like, ten years prior. What’s the point? I’ve gone in a different direction. And it was just absolutely crazy. So that’s when you’ve got I mean, they’re actually just written questions, but you’ve got technology in the way. You’re hiding behind emails. You’re hiding behind oh, apparently this makes this not biased. It totally made them biased because they looked at how to LinkedIn profiles, like, come on, you’re biased the second you do that, because you’re like, oh, we like young blondes, or whatever, right? So it’s immediately so walk through the process. Are we making it more complicated? Are we putting steps in the way we don’t need to put there? Because at the end of the day, really what you need is a CV and a phone number, in my humble opinion, to create a conversation over simplifying it. I know, but it’s true. So just a big answer to the question, but I think if you focus all the time on is it saving us time? The hiring manager time? Like creating ease. It’s like saving time and creating ease and delivering a great experience. That’s what you’re looking for. That’s what online shopping does. We all know we go to Amazon and we type our search and up pops the product, and we know we can buy it in one click. It’s that ease, and it’ll recommend stuff that others have bought that will complement what you’re buying. And it’s like ease all the time. If we go to another website, we’re trying to buy something that starts being complicated, we click off and we don’t buy it. We go buy it somewhere else. It’s the same thing, save time. And what do you think are the biggest challenges that talent acquisition leaders face today? It’s really interesting. So if we look at it from a global perspective, we downsized quite dramatically in 2020. Most companies, not all. If you were in tech or Pharma, you probably were recruiting or healthcare. But in 2020, the vast majority of companies over downsized. Then they spent 2021 and part of this year almost overhring. So really trying to get back up. And I think what we’re having now is like a rebalancing going on. So, yes, there is talk of recession. I mean, the UK, we have given ourselves one between Brexit and the Pandemic. I deliberately pronounced it like that. Don’t correct it. But it’s that we’ve created our own we have zero growth at the moment. Right? So yes, it’s a recession. I think the media is scaring us into it more so because companies are rebalancing. So you have tech companies, I personally think have overhired and have now gone, whoa, what are we doing? We need to sit and have a reassessment of where we’re at. And I think there’s a bit of that going on and unfortunately it’s scaring people into. We are definitely in a recession now. I’m not an economist and I could be wrong, of course, happy to say that, but what I would look at is the fact all I see in my feed is people getting jobs and I’m still seeing people getting hired. So compared to the layoffs in 2020, the layouts in 2008, nine previous recessions I’ve been through, so I’ve been around a while. It doesn’t feel like that to me. So that’s a factor. There is a little bit of uncertainty in some areas in the market, but in general it’s still really difficult to recruit the people they need. But the other thing I always see, and hence I started my newsletter on LinkedIn, the recruitment isn’t broken tongue in cheek, but internally within companies, these growing taller acquisition functions, there is a perception problem. So it’s still a new function and they’re incredible and they can make incredible change when they’re done right. But you need to tell the business, you need to get out and talk to the business, leaders and recruitment directors. Get out and talk to your business, partner with your business. Let them understand what you’re doing. Try and get away from the reactive to the proactive. Even if you’re on a hiring freeze, you should be out there saying, well, if you had a crystal ball or if the hiring freeze ended tomorrow, what would be the first thing that you’re going to need? Because when the hiring freeze does end, it’s going to take three months to get started again. Whereas you could actually be already pipelining and just being honest with people and saying, we are on a hiring freeze. It’s possible we’ll have this role, it’s possible we won’t. But I just want to see where you’re at and know where you’re at and if you’d ever be of interest to us, you can still start talking to people. And also if you’re at a company that’s having a hiring freeze, by being proactive like that, you’re less likely to find yourself without the job as well. So that’s some of the stuff that’s going on as far as I see, but most of it still comes back to the old collaboration chaos, creating bad candidate experience, making future hiring a problem.

Interesting. You are an active person in the HR community and throughout the book you mentioned many people who seem to have a similar social mindset. So who inspires you the most and who do you recommend to follow online? Do you think that recruiters should support each other more, create, be part of such communities.

Yeah, totally. Oh, my gosh. It’s really interesting because from the agency side to the in house side, there’s still an “us” and “them” and it needs to go. It just needs to go. Right. Just stop it. You’re also partnering to fill roles, but the in house community started. There’s some really active ones here in the UK and they’re everywhere, they’re all across Europe…  But it’s people sharing tips and tricks and their situations and everyone learning together to make our industry better, to make our profession better, which is awesome. I’d like to see more of that in the agency. There’s less of that. It is around, but it is lovely to see people coming together like that to collaborate. So, to answer your question, as the human being, I had to think about this because I know a lot of people and I could really offend pretty well everybody. But the name that was jumping out at me because of the full champion of everything is Vanessa Rath. She is actually based in Johannesburg, but is known all around the world. I mean, she’s quite incredible. She’s gone from being an in-house recruiter acquisition professional to actually teaching sourcing. Now, that’s her job and she also runs sourcing projects. But she is just the kindest, most generous human I know in our space, in the respect of helping the community, being a champion of being human and doing this job well, but always kind, always generous and knowledgeable and wanting to improve our profession. I think it’s all about just being a  good person. 

Okay, so for people who don’t know Vanessa, we recommend checking her profile. Okay, good. Thank you very much. 

Thank you.

It’s the end of the interview, is there maybe anything that you would like to say to our viewers?

Of course, once again recommend purchasing the book.

Yeah, exactly.

If you’re a leader, please don’t buy one. Buy your team a copy each. Buy one from the library. Doesn’t make them feel special in any recruitment book. Buy them one each. Actually mine with Jan Tegze’s book “FullStack Recruiter”. They go beautifully together as well. When I did the workshop the recruiters had a copy of both books, and I was like, no, that’s how you show you really appreciate your team as well, which is quite lovely. So, yes, I mean, obviously, please. Yes, of course “The Robot-Proof Recruiter.” But also, my website is really complicated. It’s, so come and have a browse. I have a free Candidate engagement course on there, which is quite cool. I just updated it so I know it’s like, fresh. It will get you thinking. And obviously, I have my LinkedIn newsletter. If you do send me an invite to connect on LinkedIn, please say that you heard me here. I always love to know. I don’t like unexplained invites to connect. I like people to say, oh, I heard you here as well. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Thanks you very much for joining me and for having this conversation. I think it was super interesting to see your point on all of these aspects and yeah, let’s stay in touch.

Thank you. Definitely.